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+ message about KOTH point scored now shown only about player who finished turn
+ units highlight in KOTH zone added
+ now in KOTH you need to earn 12*team size
+ fixed: sometimes objects spawned in KOTH zone and corrupted it
+ fixed: missing KOTH zone
+ experience when starting naked is decreased by 20% per naked unit if your level is greater than 5
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I've already heard that from you more than once. I hope next time you will say something new.
I hope so, too, because that will mean you'll have listened to people with experience and have learned to make better design decisions.
Seriously, I'm giving you all this free advice to make the game better.
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Xenomech, go play jumprope with your sister. If you dont have a jumprope, then buy one. If you suck at it, then buy a better jumprope. Moral of the story? everything costs money.
Wow. Just...wow...
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To help put things into a graphical perspective, here is what the game balance for a good multiplayer online game looks like:
And this is what the game balance for Gunrox looks like:
Players with little skill or poor weapons start at the left hand side of the chart and are trying to make their way to the right. The best approach to designing the game would be to help these players get to the middle so they don't get discouraged and give up on the game. This can done by NOT ludicrously penalizing players who lose games and lose their equipment.
Bear in mind that the chart does not depict ease of levelling or ease of raising one's rank. It depicts ease of improvement of the player's "status", which is a general term describing the conglomeration of the various things that characterize a player of the game (e.g. player skill, team level, rank, items, etc.).
What you’ll want to do in a massively-multiplayer game — especially one you charge money for — is to get people easily hooked and not easily bored. This results in a pool of players who are all trying to out do one another, which is a hallmark of a successful game.
Don't continue to make the mistake that forcing players to spend money in order to improve in the game should be the main way to get players to improve their "status". The game should help the unlucky and the less skilled, and it should challenge the lucky and the more skilled.
Once you've got the game properly balanced this way, it becomes a self-sustaining system instead of one that bleeds players. The primary focus should be on balancing the game into an ideal risk/reward state, then, from that point, look into addressing areas where players may be exploiting your designs.
But just throwing penalty on top of penalty on top of penalty for the bulk of your players is just going to destroy Gunrox in the end.
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A new player can loot weapons from crates at the newb area. All the other players mostly have newb guns there too so its not that big drawback really.
I don't think your graphs are right because it was very easy to start playing gunrox without reading any manual. And I think its getting slowly harder so the difficulty curve is good. After all its mostly about how good or bad your opponents are.
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I don't think your graphs are right because it was very easy to start playing gunrox without reading any manual.
The graph is not about how difficult it is to actually figure out how the game works.
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I don't agree with your reasoning, but I do understand what you mean. It is hard to get weapons if you have lost some times in a row and have nothing left. But it is not impossible. I know I was in that "hole" myself already, but its not that terrible to lose a match or 5 because you start with newbguns. Besides, it might work as an incentive for someone to buy guns from moneyshop and thus funding the game ☺
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Late: As I also wrote about in another thread, players should not be "forced" into paying for a game because of bad game design... That is not the idea of good microtransaction-funded games. You cannot protect flaws in the design by saying "then people can just buy some Enkord cash".
I'm not saying that Gunrox is a bad or poorly designed game, not at all, I think it is a great game... But there is still room for improvement in different areas.
The reason why I (and probably also Xenomech) come with suggestions for improvements is that I wan't the game to succeed on a greater scale (more players = more fun for me, and more money to support the dev. team), a good way of doing this is by improving the game. And when some of the suggestions even comes from people working/having experience with game development they should be taken seriously (although this is not the same as the suggestions should be implemented, there could be different good reasons not to do so)... Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe I am mistaking but it seems to me that some (or at least one) of the moderators on this forum are not part of the team developing the game, and they surely have no understanding of game design principles/game development. That is why I hope some of the input from the community reaches the Gunrox game designer(s), instead of stranding at the feet of some forum moderator with a over-hostile one-tracked view on the whole situation.
Fictional (but realistic) example:
Passionate Gunrox player, willing to give input to improve the game: "Hey guys, I think it would be great if you could make this feature ... That could help balance the game and make it even more fun."
Forum moderator: "LOL.... Like... OMG... LOL... you can just use the cash shop FTW LOL! you iDea isn't gooood... because it would change th3 GAME... AND the game is 1337 already! LOL.... N00b..."
Edited 50 minutes later by *DELETED*.
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you forgot famous "plan your steps ahead" and "i feel your pain" 😁
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To help put things into a graphical perspective,.
I don`t think your graph is right either, I found gunrox very easy at the start and won most matches this was during beta trials and no one could buy weapons. The weapon choice early on is limited so u can be equipped by just a few boxes. One thing that may hamper beginners is that the smaller map that they have available to them may give a quicker game but limits them in collecting items , we started with a larger map, but the second map is opened quite quickly with a few wins so this should not be to much of a problem. Now i am level 14 the game is a lot more challenging and harder to win, my only real problem is finding a game as players are more cautious who they will play above this level.
plus ur 2 graphs compare 2 different thing one says difficulty to advance the other is on the challenge of the game like comparing chalk and cheese.
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plus ur 2 graphs compare 2 different thing one says difficulty to advance the other is on the challenge of the game like comparing chalk and cheese.
I understand that the graphs may be a bit complicated to understand. They are high-level abstractions. The difficulty to advance in the game is equivalent to the challenge level. I'm not sure how you are understanding those two things as being different.
And, to be clear, the Y-axis does not correspond to anything: you have to look at the slope between two points.
Regarding the confusion about the graphs:
Think the the curve in the graph as being a path a person on top of it must walk. In general, the preferred path is the easier one (i.e. in the downward direction). What you want your game to do is "catch" people in the middle of the graph rather than push them off either edge.
And the curve represents an abstraction of all game elements, not one particular aspect (such as how "easy" the game is). It includes things like the learning curve, rewards, punishments, the amount and level disparity of interaction between players, etc.
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And that's a design mistake. Forcing people at the low end of the "status" curve to pay or quit is bad. It's far preferable to encourage players in the middle of the curve to pay or play.
This is where we disagree, I think that if you are a player with no weapons left, your "status" isn't in the lowest of lows, because you still have your real life skill to play and the ingame skills and perks you have chosen. so nobody is forcing you to "pay or quit" as you put it.
If you lose some times in a row, and haven't bought the storage enlargement, you will run out of weapons faster. Then you are without weapons, you can start some games with no weapons and end up losing because of it, but its not that terrible. When you put points to skills your starting weapons get better, and the difference between "no gear" and "reasonably well fitted" group is limited. I think the "pay to get weapons" is an excelent way of prodding people to fund the game without making it mandatory to do so.
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Enough is enough
To Ninjazee and Xenomech:
I'm actually quite surprised at some of your comments because overall it seems like both of you have a good understanding of mulitiplayer gaming pros and cons. While I do not agree with many of your statements, I respect them and see that you are ultimatly trying to improve the game.
I feel the need to point out just a few things I heard you mention that are not true.
This is not a MMO as one of you made it out to be. ("What you’ll want to do in a massively-multiplayer game — especially one you charge money for — is to get people easily hooked and not easily bored." ) And its not a game that they charge money for - its free to play.
While I would think the intent in the end is to make it successful enough that thousands of people join up, this is a game that is played with 1-7 other people, not hundreds at a time. Yes, it has a chat room. The reason I bring this up is because, most successful MMO's out there are pay-to-play. Some, have tried a free side and then try to get people to pay later but most of them fall short. It comes down to cash flow, which, sad to say, has to be dealt with BEFORE all of the many suggestions can be implemented.
One of you mentioned: "The point is to keep the game fun for people who won't/can't pay -- thus enlarging your player base, which is crucial for a game like this -- rather than putting them in a position where they feel they need to pay in order to continue or just give up." I have a few comments:
Do you really think that without the cash shop or the exp bonus for item use that the game would be void of people with double accounts, trading weapons at low levels, and stacking up their alt accounts?...thus creating the same "feel of imbalance for new players"? If you think so - you're wrong. EVERY GAME suffers from some sort of abuse. Sure, there are steps that can be taken to counter this but that takes time and ...yep...money.
Where do you think the money is coming from to fund this game? Certainly not from THIS GAME...even with the Cash Shop. I think you may have to be a business owner to fully understand this but, while many people, including myself would LOVE to make a free game that stays free, is always interesting and fun for new and old players, and always takes to heart the suggestions of the fourms...that is a pipe dream. The reality is, the economy is tough and I'm impressed GUNROX hasn't been forced into a pay-to-play method already! I think the game is strong enough to stand on its own as a pay-to-play game because the extra revenue gained, would HELP to allow for the changes the game may need.
However, I respect that they want to keep it free. I just wish others would understand that ULTIMATE BALANCE will never be achieved. Make your comments and then let it rest. GUNROX should be able to push people a bit towards using the Cash Shop if they want. It's smart, it's nessecerry, even if it causes some frustration amoung players.
GUNROX is truly trying to have a micro-trans option that doesn't totally mess up game balance. Meanwhile, everyone expects them to make programming changes that realistically: AREN'T SIMPLE, COST TIME THEY DON'T HAVE, AND MAY OR MAY NOT SPAWN MORE SUGGESTIONS OF THE SAME. (you can see how this could be an endless circle - ending in the game going under)
To all of you who feel passionate enough and frustrated enough about what GUNROX has or hasn't done: Continue to make your suggestions and believe that they will implement what they see as realistic and positive. Encourage others to play this game. And then enjoy GUNROX for what it is.
If that is not good enough for you, then I recommend one of two things: 1)donate a large sum of money so GUNROX can continue to put in the extra programming thats needed to make some of the changes you are suggesting....OR: 2) Make your own game, one that is perfect for all, with perfect "player balance graphs", that fulfills everyones needs and desires, and that only re
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Notorious:
I just read your book, it's a reasonable piece of work ☺
I'm glad to see that none of your quotes are actually from me, except for the last one. And to fully understand that last quote you must have followed a lot of the forum threads for at least some weeks. If you have done so you should know what I am referring to (and I know for certain that several other players do). Generally I have very much respect for the people working on/for this game (or doing any kind of voluntary work for a good cause), also if they are not part of the actual development but are just moderating the forum. But... First you have to earn this respect and responding to all suggestions from players with post like my example (the one you quoted) is absolutely not the way to do that!
When I have posted suggestions for the game the only thing that I have expected is that at least one person from the development team would eventually (maybe in a few months) read the suggestions and reflect briefly about their potential. And then of course I also expected the absence of posts as the one previously discussed, but that should be a matter of course.
Otherwise I agree with the views stated in your book.
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Thx Ninja,
I think the expectaions you just mentioned are very reasonable and you are correct, I haven't been involved with the forums until only recently so I probably took that quote a bit out of context or didn't fully understand it.
Thanks for the respectful response, my hope is that GUNROX can make its way into the US market in a big way (hopefully with my help!!!)which could trigger a nice bit of needed cash flow. Thus, creating a bit more opportunity/justification to fix some of the things that have been in need of fixing.
However, as you have mentioned, it would be in GUNROX's best interest to make sure insightful player posts are responded to adequatly and maybe even publicly listed (i know they have an internal "to do" list already) so they can feel their voices have been "heard" at least to some degree. Reactionary replys do not help the forum community - the same as sarcastic posts. So, I think we are actually on the same page. ☺
I know we both have the same end goal or we wouldn't be posting on this forum. ☺
Josh (Notorious)
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