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Poison Overpower
ok guys it is time to discuss this,
Poison nader are overpowerd now whit this splash resistence.
why someone woud carry a frag nader, if you could carry 2-3 poison nader, and 1 poison do the same or more dmg than 1 frag hited in head( but in 2 - 3 turns), and u dont need care about the splash resistence.
its almost impossible you win 1x1 games at level 50, if u dont use axes or poison naders. Also if u can trow 2 poison in 2 units together and ur enemy have no poison resistence so bye bye a all or almost all mediits.
and its have 0 disper even whit 30% blind.
I have 2 naders and carry 5+ poison and 4 frags in every mega. i always use all poison, and many times i dont use even 1 frag nader.
all level 50+ carry minimun 6 poison nadeers, some carry 10+. I know that this is part of the strategy, but a nader that requeires only 10 skill to use, be so strong in my opinion is a mistake.
other weapons and naders are almost being left behind, they people use onlys poison.
I believe this should be changed.
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My sugestion is: Make the splash resistence validates for Poison naders also, or reduce the poison per skill ( 100 skill nader = 59 poison now, maybe reduce to 45). but its only for units no-shelter.
have to be careful not to let the ''shelter'' stronger than they are already.
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I'm only level 21 but it seems to me there's enough poison perks to balance that...
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you rigth, 4 poison resistence is enougth for a unit NO-SHELTER, but if you are no shelter you die so easy whit these chainsaw, gunblade and other weapns level 50 that is better you have 2 shelter or shelter and turtle.
HP perks dont worth, an unit whit 330 hp and shelter, is much better than an unit 412 hp no-shelter. 16 perks are required to use Shelter + full poison resistence, if you remove the Health and Extra Health and regeneration perks you will have a unit shelter whit less 84 hp, and 84 hp are level 50 you can die easyly. lets compare.
412 hp no shelter + imp power armor --> 33% dmg resistence
330 hp shelter + imp power armor ---> 49% dmg resistence
choosing any one weapon like g11, max dmg is 105 at max range.
if you do hits inunit no-shelter. you will hit 71 dmg
if u do hits at units shelter 0 ap, you will hit 54 dmg
if you keeping shoting the unit NO-shelter will die whit 5,8 hits while the shelter unit die whit 6,1 Hits. even whit less hp. considering that the player whit the shelter will always use All his aps,
shelter unit is harder to kill than a non-shelter unit whit better hp even if stay 0 ap. this is why hard to find a level 50 whit no shelter unit.
this is the point, you even can have a unit whit full poison resistece no-shelter, but you lose so many other advantages that is make you weak.
the build of the moment now on this game is a good doctor behind 2 shelters whit axe or gunblade and a lot of Poison nader 0 disper. some players here bring only 1 imp flash and all other nader are poison, becoz why u need flash nader if your enemy can trow poison even if blinded, and your weapons hit are not so effective in shelter.
in other words, the game come down to a big war of poison naders, becoz there are no other way to win.
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so im not 50 if i take only 3☹?
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We will make that on the edges of splash poison will do less poison damage just like regular grenade.
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great idea bers ! , reduce acid so that only direct hits will do max acid dmg
when everyone use the same thing = it must be overpowered. and now
everyone takes 2 acid naders (in lvl 50 , u can have 0 disp acid as 3rd skill !!!)
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yes, but have to be carefully to dont make the Shelters unitts invencibles.
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Done in this update, let's play and see how it's changed now.
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Goood Job!☺☺
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I believe it was just a question of time. Like henri said shelters are better option for higher levels comparing damage and hp. The only option to kill a shelter with many remain ap are poisen attacks. Damage-nades or shoots looks like funny scratches.
If you use melee and stay close to the shelter you will die next turn so poisen nades the only effective option to attack enemy and hide again.
Other advantages of are less skills, low weight, simple dispersion.
Disadvantages: you can't kill with poisen, opponent always can move and maybe heal. The best opposite of poisen-nades are poisen resistance or other way is high regeneration (with all bonusperks i believe 30 regeneration) but nobody use this perks. If you use all hp-perks+reg-perks +bonusperks, so you don't have perks remain for other resistences and medium tank-units at moment weaker than normal-hp-shelters.
Shelters much more effective vs the 90 % of whole other weapons (henri discribe this at upper posting).
Now at a time nearly everybody use 1 or some use 2 shelterunits we think poisen is overpowered? Like henri said don't forget the shelters in this discussion. I believe they are the mainreason for this thread and using poisennades.
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I believe this update has weakened a bit more the Shelters Units. Now you just need trow poison nader rigth in head of the shelter and and he will get a lot of poison.
I see in mega, -beck- stay shelter 8 - 7 ap, and took 69 poison of only 1 poison nader. Also whit this uptade even if u trow a poison nader on de edges near the shelter unit he will get same poison as before.
But i think the problem are not the shelter overpower, the problem is that the HP perks dont worth more, better a unit 300 hp shelter than 412 hp, you have many more choices of tactics if u play good.
The Hp perks and regenetarion worth only for the levels that cant creat a shelter good enougth.
What you choose?
shelter unit 250 hp or tank 350hp ?
The natural reaction of any one is say that 250 hps is too low, die easy and etc. but if you stop to think about the numbers and the about the possibilits of what u can do in a match whit shelter you ofc will choice the shelter. the only one problem is that you have to play intelligently and this is a problem for many.
the question I raise is:
whice build you would choice?
Shelter unit 362 hp, no regeneration?
or No-Shelter 412 hp + 15 regeneration?
60+ hp and 15 regeneration per turn worth it???
15 regeneration is 1 small white medikit per turn. 50 hp less than 1 hit of AUG.
You must be crazy to choice the second build.
to HP perks could competition with the shelter, shouw at last give 100+ hp and more regeneration.
for now HP perks are perks that are left over and you do not have choice where put they, so you put they in HP.
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If you fear poisen 2nd built is better not because a small medipack.
1. Poisen isn't improved (no remain ap of shelter)
2. 1-2 turns after hit your regeneration is better than poisen.
but vs all other weapons shelter built is better so everybody would prefer the shelter.
But what or the unbalance?
What i mean is difference between poisen and damage. Normally every player prefer killing a unit within 1 turn so you better choose damage nades (for example at megas but because of sheltersunits and upcomming splash resistence poisen becomes more and more influence. Also because its usefull for other units too.
But what would happen if shelters weakness is stun insteed of poisen? I believe than player prefer to shoot stunnades and attack with normal weapons not with poisen.
At moment after swat-armor and imp swat there are no poisen resistences at armors but hugh resistence for blindness and stun and naturally normal damageresistence. Maybe you own some outposts of junkyard and you use 4 perk + armor you will have up to 75% stunresistences. Means imp stunnade brings 22% stun to the shelter. Without outpost control 36% stun. You need 3-4 nader with +90skill for full stunning and additional shoot of normal weapons to kill this shelter. What would happen if you can stun this units easier? -> i believe you prefer to stun and kill insteed of poisen (this also means other weapons will be usefull again to shoot a shelter)
What would happen with 20% poisen resistences at higher armors? -> the effect of a single poisen is small with some regeneration also not dangerous. Just additional poisenattacks is dangerous. Poisen of 150 or more also a reason why many player use 2 poisennaders. Just a attack with 2 or more nades per turn is dangerous.
At least i don't think poisennades was overpowered we all played along a long time with metal and swat armors and poisen was just a option beside other nades.
The only problem is the hugh resistences against all kind of other nades vs a built + armor you show us with gunroxroom. Blind makes 20%, Impblind makes 40% blindness, stun brings 20%, impstun 36% stun, damage nades vs shelters with splashresistence is not worth to speak about.
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The poison nader was overpower, before this update whit 110 skill in nader you hit 59 whit poison, now everyone use poison nader. if They trow 2 poison per turn 0 disper in someone whot dont have any poison resistence, so all meds are gone in 2 - 3 turns.
you must watch 1x1 at level 50. its just a big war of poisons naders. Wins who have more poison and medikits.
in my view the imp blind nader and imp stun are proportionaly perfect!
if someone blind you, and you have 110 skill ina naders. you still can ataack back becoz you will have only 2 disper, 2 disper in nader if you know how to use it, will be hard to you miss.
The same thing whit Imp stun. if you have 14 ap, and someone trow imp stun on you. you will still have 9 ap. 9 ap you can put a nader in hand and trow something back.
If improve the Blin and stun, so will win the game who Blind/Stun the other units first, becoz you will be not able to back fire, your only option is run.
for me imp flash and stun are perfect.
I thik what we need is improve the regneration, 15 regeneration per turn is too loww. 15 hp is nothing.
Also, when we growing up in level we start use better weapons that do a big dmg. the dmg of the weapons incread exponentially while the HP and regeneration increase linearly, ie in a much smaller proportion.
The people will only stop using Shelter units, when there is another option to make your unit hard to die. This option is HP perks, but still dont worth it.
Ofc, this is not an urgent need, the game is still good on this way.
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You are right all other nades weakend by resistence. Blindess becomes ineffective, stun becomes ineffective, damage nades becomes ineffective just a poisennade brings countable effect.
Now you said poisen needs to be weakend. I believe resistence of armors should be changed a bit. Maybe more poisen resitence and less stun/blindresistence. Stun and blind should be usefull again especially for improved blind or stun nades because they needs heavy weight but still had no important effect.
Or maybe a maximum possible resistence around 50%. If you have more than 50% of a special resistence (f.e. stun) you still will be hitted with 50%. So you can choose if you use resistence because perks, armor or outposts. If you reach more than 50% you could use your perks in another way. (you just can raise this border with using arts)
Btw. why imp stun just brings 90% stun not 100%. I know if you would hit a unit without resistence the maximum possible stun is 90% (always 2 ap remain thats ok) but because of resistences the effect of imp-stun is always 10% less than imp blind but there is no real reason why.
The people will only stop using Shelter units, when there is another option to make your unit hard to die. This option is HP perks, but still dont worth it.
...or there is another option to make shelters die easier 😉
You are right comparing hp+regeneration and shelter. Shelter is always better. But enhance regeneration is bad idea because big influence at other perks/skills:
- higher regeneration means weakened influence of docs and whole medipacks (no need to heal just regenerate)
- higher regeneration would weakened poisen (regeneration is bigger than poisen at 2nd turn after a single poisen attack)
You can have a unit with 812hp and 34 regeneration a perfect unit vs poisen attack and you could compare such a unit with a 300-400hp shelter. BUT you need all 55 perks in hp and reg + all bonusperks. No more remain perks for resistences (blind/stun/splah/critical) no perks for more weight... Shelters much easier to make with 12perks and you still have 43 perks remain for many other things. You said regeneration needs to be more i think conditions for shelters should be more so shelter can't be protect from everything anymore. F.E. how would you skill your shelterunits if you need 32 perks or 42 perks? This way i believe players start to built tanks insteed of shelter or they use a mix of turtle and hp. At least every shelter had 1 or more weak points. At moment they are the strongest unit at the game. Protected with 40% vs everything also with strong weapons, additional ap and some more weight.
At moment in 1vs1 of 50 with 1-2 shelters you don't have options with stun, blindess or doing damage. The only option is poisen. You could choose the way to weakend poisen or you think about improving all other weapons (really hard) or weakend the resistences for improve the weapons.
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I have a contrary opinion of your, i think that imp flash and imp stun are already strong. its the reason of the most of players use 2 naders.
if you reduce the resistece and make the nader more strong soon we will see players whit 3 naders. becoz if someone trow imp blind on you you get 50% blind,or 50% stun what will u do? your naders will be 3 disper, your weapons will scrath. so you run or die.
I think better if try make do granades less strong, to make the people use lees naders unit. And Also reduce the weigth of dmg nader, they are almost uselles now and still too heavy.
...or there is another option to make shelters die easier 😉
You are right comparing hp+regeneration and shelter. Shelter is always better. But enhance regeneration is bad idea because big influence at other perks/skills:
- higher regeneration means weakened influence of docs and whole medipacks (no need to heal just regenerate)
- higher regeneration would weakened poisen (regeneration is bigger than poisen at 2nd turn after a single poisen attack)
there is no chance to make the shelter die easy, whit these guns. A Gauss rifle can remove 200 of your hp easssyly, a gunblade melle or punisher pistol can remove 300 hp easyly too, critics can remove 25 in 1 hit. whit all these strong guns. Shelter is more than necessary
about the HP i think even 30 reg per turn is still low, for the lots of perks that you need to have it. 30 hp make no diference. Also, the diference btw 412 hp + 15 reg and 522 + 19 reg ar 11 perks, this far out of proportion. Perks are the key of this game, 110 + 4 reg dont worth 11 perks, never. 110hp = 1 gauss hit no crtiic!
what i want to say is: Shelter like they are now, are extremely nescessary!
if the shelter were not so, the game will very upset to play, becoz the even the big tanks die easy if hited by the guns 100 - 120 skill or critica units.
But knu, i undestand you. Play Megas againt level 50 is frustrating, they shelter are annoying and hard to kill. But this why the level 50 is the highest level of the game, if any level 40+ whit a good build could stop a level 50, so what is the motivation to get 50?
I really understand why on this game cant have 50+ level. Will but unfair with the others players.
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good discussion?
hmmm... i think henrique and knut conversation is too advanced for a level 24 like me. i dont have to worry about all that yet.
My opinion, i think a poison nade that is 1 cell away from target should create same poison damage as direct hit...
Like henrique said earlier, he thinks poison are overpowering in high levels.
I think poison is too weak now for lower levels since 88% of their poison nades is NOT A DIRECT HIT.
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Like henrique said earlier, he thinks poison are overpowering in high levels.
I think poison is too weak now for lower levels since 88% of their poison nades is NOT A DIRECT HIT.
this is the point man. Poison shoud be used only for a strip of level like( level 5 - 20)
you must to remenber that poison nader requires only 10 skill to use,
even level 5 can use it.
i created a low acc, and im using 3 naders whit poison, im level 5. But i think its unfair.before this uupdate i trow 2 poison nader in any enemy unit, and wait 2-3 turn and he have 1 hp.
This is a good tatic but also unfair. low levels dont have poiso resistence.
how a weapons than need 10 skill, can be so popular at the higth level, mean that something was wrong. and now looks better.
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Mu oppinion is :tank unit Cost to much perks everybody use shellter>
Shelter overpower>onlyest way to make good damage at shelters is poison>
Poison overpower >gotta do something about shelter overpower or less perks for tank
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After reading whole thread I see that shelter is a problem nor poison. I see 50's start using more and more AIDS granades, because shelters are simply unkillable in other way.
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